OH MY GOD. This is the most fucking brilliant thing I have ever seen.
It’s not just the lyrics. There are musical callbacks to Sweeney Todd all through it, Lin-Manuel’s makeup and voice, the staging callbacks, RENEE’S HAIR, my inner musical theater geek is SCREAMING.
I am not over this. If you want to FULLY get the brilliance here, you need to watch these. The opening number of the 82 production:
And “Epiphany”, one of the big Act I closers (technically “A Little Priest” closes the act, but this is a HUGE number, and Lin uses it a LOT in their version).
And seriously, if your only familarity with Sweeney Todd comes from that HORRIBLE Johnny Depp atrocity, do yourself a favor and find the 1982 version because it is amazing. This is like, formative Broadway shit for me, one of the first shows I was ever exposed to (yay cable tv).
2/2 he doesn’t leave mary, sure he would have if knew Sherlock loved him back but is that IF what bothers people it’s like suddenly John’s love is conditional I only hope S4 explains that Mary manipulated John into staying with her from the very beginning
Anonymous said:people hate on john because they think he doesn’t really loved sherlock, if he did then he would have dumped mary as soon as he came back, even if he thinks Sherlock is incapable of returning his feelings he would have wanted to be with him but instead he leaves sherlock and marries
Anonymous said: I don’t think John needs to be redeemed for forgiving Mary because it’s pretty obvious that he didn’t actually forgive her BUT I do think he needs to redeem himself for marrying her in the first place instead of going back to Baker St. It’s like he will only be by Sherlock’s side if he returns his feelings like he doesn’t values Sherlock’s friendship or doesn’t love him enough to accept it if Sherlock doesn’t feel the same
Anonymous said: the problem is not that john forgives mary, that’s fake, but he did love her and he decided to spend the rest of his life with her instead of sherlock because he had a relationship with her and thought sherlock couldn’t love him back so john decided that sex was more important for him than to be with sherlock he prefered a relationship with mary than a platonic friendship with Sherlock
Sorry guys, I’m putting these all together because my answer will be pretty much the same for them all.
Look Nonnies, I know. But people still SEVERELY misread S3 John. John DID try to get with Sherlock and he failed. Sherlock misunderstood. John misunderstood. Their whole relationship is based on misunderstandings. John hit on Sherlock on his stag night, for goodness sake. John took Mary because he thought she was the safer of the two; he was afraid Sherlock would break his heart again. And Mary is a skilled manipulator and emotional abuser and has made them both think that they do not need each other.
Look, I love John. He’s a very complex character who is very difficult to understand because unlike Sherlock, he DOESN’T wear his emotions on his sleeve. He hides them. He needs to learn to open up and accept himself before their relationship moves any further, which I believe that S4 is going to focus heavily on.
I think a lot of people mistake our John’s character as the one that fanon turned him into: a homebody, tea making… well… helpmeet who just occasionally takes care of Sherlock and goes out on adventures with him while being in utter fascination of him.
THIS IS NOT JOHN. Please, rewatch the series as a whole and see: Mofftiss has created a John different from all other iterations of John. He is all of these PLUS SO MUCH MORE: he’s a SOLDIER (A CAPTAIN). He’s a DOCTOR. He’s seen shit. He’s had a rough life. He’s addicted to danger and may have latent PTSD. He’s brilliant in his own way, fiercely independent, and Sherlock sees him as an equal. They are partners, and it was only until TAB that Sherlock understood that John wanted it in ALL definitions of the word. Time wasted for both of them, but Sherlock and John will make it work.
I can see the point y’all are trying to make, but no one should have to “redeem themselves” for being confused and misunderstanding someone else’s intentions, and you are severely misunderstood on what the word redemption actually means:
- an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed.
- deliverance; rescue
- Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.
- atonement for guilt.
- repurchase, as of something sold.
- paying off, as of a mortgage, bond, or note.
- recovery by payment, as of something pledged.
John is feeling terribly guilty about the whole thing, and YES, he did make a mistake, I do concede that, but it feels like some people want to condemn John for being confused, scared, and depressed. Mary tricked John into a proposal because she already saw he was going to stray. The guilt is the EXACT same crap Mary uses on both John and Sherlock.
Please understand that John will always choose Sherlock; all John and Sherlock have to do is talk. Trust in our dads to make John the man Sherlock needs him to be. He’s ALMOST there. But he will need Sherlock’s help to get there. THAT is why Sherlock had to come to his realization first.
There is a lot about John moving on with Mary that I understand. I do. I’ve thought about John’s motives a lot and discussed with friends again and again.
@inevitably-johnlocked went over all the points quite well above.
One thing that I’ve always believed is John trusted Sherlock with his heart. In s2 he gave up dating and was willing to stay by Sherlock’s side for life. Without anything. No commitment, no discussion. He wasn’t dating women anymore loved him without end. And as far as John knew, romantic feelings would never be returned.
And then Sherlock jumped.
John, the man that has trouble trusting (this is the first thing we learn about him), the man that has struggled his entire life, trusted his heart to someone that committed suicide in front of him. That broke him. It truly did. He grieved like a spouse, a widower, a soul mate. He never got over that.
Two years later, he finally knows he needs to move on. Sherlock is dead. He takes Mary to the grave. This is the first time we see Mary. Think about that. Mary, a symbol of his new life, saying goodbye to his old life that even now he can’t seem to move past.
And then surprise! Sherlock isn’t dead. And instead of Sherlock explaining that he jumped because he was blackmailed, that he spent two years away thinking nothing but of John, that he’s finally back, and he finally wants to tell John that he is his everything too, Sherlock makes a joke.
At this point in Sherlock’s narrative arc Sherlock just didn’t understand how much the betrayal broke John. If he had understood, he would have told John another way. He would have explained everything the moment he saw him.
So from John’s pov, Sherlock is back. He’s still arrogant and doesn’t understand the first thing about John’s pain and betrayal. John does forgive Sherlock. He didn’t fake that. But he can’t trust his heart with him again. He tried that and it almost killed him.
So he trusts his heart with Mary. And he places Sherlock in the “best friend” slot and tries to move on.
But we all know Mary betrayal is worse than Sherlock ever was, and Sherlock only did it to protect the person he loves.
Our dads have set up an incredible story. Don’t worry, John will trust Sherlock again, with his heart and his life, and everything will be fine.
MI6 scene: what if we discover that John went to Mycroft after The Watson domestic, demanded to know everything they had on AGRA, Mycroft and MI6 ask him to spy on her, keep her close, plan her downfall. John said he has to stay with Sherlock till fully recovered, then he’ll do it. At Xmas he starts his mission, Sherlock nearly blows it by killing CAM, that was not part of Mycroft and John’s plan. Afterwards Mycroft assures John he will get Sherlock exonerated. John keeps on with his mission. S4 episode one, things heat up, AGRA takes an assignment. For some reason John has to reveal his mission to Sherlock, they meet in the MI6 building, the only safe place for the revelation. ‘’You didn’t think I would really go back to her after what she did to you?”
Watson does really work for Mycroft. Sherlock just got the wrong Watson in his MP in TAB.
Okay the core idea here seems really plausible though. How many interviews do we have with TPTB when they basically talk about the fact that Dr. Watson is actually very smart, and very capable, and he only looks bumbling in comparison to sherlock? And then bemoan the fact that Dr. Watson gets written off as stupid?
If you’re writing from that standpoint – that the audience never expects brilliance from John – then John taking charge certainly would be, as they said it, “the very last thing you would expect.”
I love this.
What I’ve learned from TAB: the more johnlocky it gets, the more fandom tropes they’ll use. They are fanfic writers in the end. And John being on a secret mission against Mary is such a huge fandom trope. I hope they’ll go there. It’s much needed.
Re MI6. Which part of the building would be recognized as MI6? (btw do we really believe this to be true? Has there ever filming been done before? I’m a bit doubtful they would bend security protocols for a tv series)
Just some interesting info, they even had to have agents on site outside to make sure they weren’t filming things they shouldn’t when doing the Thames Path shoot.
It’s true that although we were told about the closed set we have no proof. Do we know if other shows have been able to film inside before? This website talks about it’s interior use within Bond films, but not entirely convinced if this wasn’t replicated with studio shots or other locations – I’d have to do more research. SAs were of course housed in the building next door, not in MI6.
This makes me think of that scene in TAB, where John says he is willing to walk behind Sherlock and play the fool for him, if that’s what he needs. John is willing to walk a step behind Sherlock and act dim if it means Sherlock is safe and happy.
They then discuss Sherlock holding himself to a higher standard because of John’s ‘idiot stories’ (his love letters to Sherlock, essentially, in which John is often quite the unreliable narrator, always painting Sherlock in the best possible light, always making him so much cleverer than he really is). Then, suddenly, Sherlock mentally interrupts himself with the telegram telling him that Mary is getting to the heart of the conspiracy and might be in danger.
Sherlock’s observed some of the details of what is going on, but he’s possibly not put them together correctly?
Think of the scene of John, Sherlock and Mary we saw filmed with the dog the other day. A lot of people felt John was looking too much the role of suburban dad. Mary out in front, leading the way with the dog, John trailing behind with Sherlock, his daughter strapped to his chest.
But what if this was just a prime example of John trailing behind and playing an unassuming role on purpose (not that I think being a nurturing father makes you suddenly an invisible non-entity, but given people’s general reaction to that scene, it seems a likely first impression for people to draw).
Mary also underestimates John a lot. It’s to his advantage to let her continue to see him as a bumbling fool. Remember Sherlock has observed enough of their marital interactions that when they argue in his head, in TAB, Mary tells John that all she really thinks he does on cases is tag along and take notes. So John is happy to play into that perception (tag along behind carrying the baby) if it is for Sherlock’s benefit–which in this case it would be. Let Mary continue to think she’s the one in control, continue to play the slightly dim sidekick, let her think that John is too stupid to be up to anything, and by extension keep Sherlock safe.
Because it isn’t that Mary is getting to the heart of any conspiracy, and is in danger (a theory that only presents itself to Sherlock’s mind after they discuss John playing the fool for him, and those idiot stories which are love letters in which John is an unreliable narrator). It is that Mary IS the heart of the conspiracy, Mary is the danger, and John is willing to continue the game of ‘unreliable narrator’ and bumbling idiot, because it is for Sherlock’s benefit.
John is doing what he has always done–keep Sherlock happy and safe by whatever means possible, even if that means protecting Sherlock from his own arrogance and overconfidence that he always has a plan and can fix things, solve things.
It’s an interesting idea, John having a grand plan of his own, keeping Sherlock safe, letting people underestimate him. People right now (including Sherlock to a certain extent) seem to see John as some baby-rearing damsel-in-distress. People seem to be dismissing and underestimating him, his intelligence and competence for the same reasons they often underestimate women, imo.
It’s really interesting to me, and is, I think, linked to some of the same reasons people underestimate the chances of Mary being a villain. It’s people taking traits they stereotypically associate with the feminine, like nurture, child-rearing, bread-baking, softness (think of Mary’s soft new curls and soothing blue costuming for instance) and automatically assuming that is all there is, dismissing strength and intelligence (and even evil), because those stereotypical female traits are present and in a lot of people’s minds the two can’t coexist.
The funny thing is that the writers actually addressed this issue with the band of women in TAB. They stayed at home, raised children, engaged in traditional female pursuits, and so were written off, underestimated, disparaged. But they were just as capable as anyone else. They were capable of murder even.
Sherlock thought it was just about women, but that wasn’t quite right. It was about a larger overarching problem that seeps into every aspect of society and doesn’t just cause us to underestimate women. But also anyone displaying what have traditionally been considered female traits, or even men who just don’t subscribe to all the tenants of traditional masculinity.
Sherlock and Mary, both, have ignored, patronised, and disregarded John. By the end of TAB, Sherlock is starting to see that maybe he shouldn’t. John is pretty damn smart. But I wager these new revelations will be tested this season.
Some thoughts about @linmanuel and Hamilton: Lin-Manuel is a year younger than me. He and I are part of that ‘bubble generation’ of kids born in the late 70s-early 80s. We’re not really Gen X and we’re not quite Millennial.
Given that, we kind of have a unique view of the world. We’re the last generation to mostly grow up without computers. The Internet came when we were in Junior High and High School. We listened to music on the radio, taping our favorite songs off it, and if we bought music it was on cassette. I know I got my first CD player as a senior in High School.
So we’re adaptable. The way I’ve put it is we’re old enough to appreciate technology but young enough to get it. This applies to music too. We grew up with rap and didn’t have autotune.
So this goes back to Hamilton. It’s a hip hop musical about Alexander Hamilton. On its surface it sounds ridiculous. But people of my generation have learned to be adaptable. We straddle a divide and so we’ve learned to synthesize. We take our experiences and relate it to the world as it is now. A lot of us (including Lin-Manuel) are steeped in Internet culture but we learned it in our 20s and 30s.
So it’s not so crazy an idea. He’s taking the music he grew up with and synthesizing and creating with a story that touched him. And because he straddles that line, Hamilton does too, hence its appeal to young people. And the #ham4ham videos show that he’s connected in a way that someone older wouldn’t understand. It doesn’t come across as pandering because it isn’t.
Anyway, just some thoughts from my point of view. My generation are kinda misfits, but that’s not a bad thing.